The Secret Tapes of a Teacher with Charles Fournier

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Charles: [00:00:00] We approached it with a lens of how do we make history honest, and how do we consider the historian that wrote the history? Uh, because you know, their perspective, their background is probably gonna contribute to what they, what they're looking for.

Andrea: Hey, teacher besties. Welcome to How to Survive the Classroom. Um, I am really, really thrilled because this is an episode where. We are in fact going to have a guest. They are not just sitting in silence right now. Um, the way we are gonna format it this season when I have a guest is we're gonna bring 'em on a little bit later in the episode so that you, you and I just have like a chance to vibe and like catch up.

Um, but at the end of the episode, when I talk about the resources, the resource I'm going to be pointing you towards is Charles and his new season of his podcast that I'm like. Obsessed with, um, he has the first season and he just, now actually as this episode is releasing, he is going to be [00:01:00] releasing his second season of his podcast, um, called Those Who Can't Teach Anymore, which again, I love, I already had him on the se on the podcast before in season one.

Um, so if you didn't listen to that one yet, you can go back and listen to it. Um, or just stick around because I get to chat with him today. So, um, but first I have to. I have to explain to you how I've been spending my week and the reason my nails are destroyed. If you are watching this on YouTube, you can probably not even see, 'cause it's, it's, it's real rough over here on these streets right now.

I have spent this week probably ingesting large amounts of lead, um, via paint fumes and paint chips and all of that. You see, uh, I'm gonna be moving very soon, and I decided because I. Am very, um, A DHD that I was like, Hey, you know what? It would be great right now is this project that I'm just gonna jump right into.

I'm just gonna take a little, a little deep dive and all [00:02:00] I need to do is just strip the paint off of this door of my current house because I'm trying to get it ready to sell. And I Googled what color doors on houses help it sell quicker. And they said black. And I was like, great. And my house, my door is white.

And I was like, all right, well it's got so many layers of paint on it. It was. Distractingly bad when I first moved in, like you could see how they had like moved pieces off and all of that. So I'm like, cool, cool, cool. I'm gonna real quick, famous last words. I'm gonna real quick, just go in and just do a little, a little paint removal.

Right? And so I, it started with like this citrus non-toxic one, which peeled all the paint on the interior side. And then the exterior side, it has been a hellscape. Every time I try and summarize this on my Instagram stories, I always say something wrong like. Out of order. Like when I first said that I was gonna be using the orange citrus strip stuff, I said I was gonna, I put down the plastic and then I put the stripper on it and I ob like I put the strip, the [00:03:00] plastic over the stripper and the amount of dms I'm getting.

And I don't know if it's from the paint fumes or it's just that my brain is like so messy right now. Um, 'cause it's, you know, it's late spring, we're getting close to summer and. My brain is just constantly trying to make sense of the world around it. Um, so yeah, if you've been following on my Instagram in the past few weeks, then you have absolutely seen the chaos of me attempting to strip this stupid door that is 60 years old and has no less than like six layers of paint, one of which I am like 99% sure is lead paint.

Um, and the thing is with lead paint, you're supposed to do like a, a wet removal is what they call it. And all of these words sound so. Inappropriate. Like I am talking about like all the different stripper I'm using and like, which strippers work the best and work the hardest. And I had to use the most toxic stripper in order for it to work.

And the amount of people DMed me and they're like, ah, yes, I know her. Like, [00:04:00] so I like, it's been quite a journey and um, I am one of those people that like grew up with a dad who. And enough motivation, he's like, we can push, we can do this. Like we can just do it ourselves. And so I've been spending a lot of time, um, regretting my life choices, but at the same time, like I'm not quitting because do you guys know a new door is like a thousand dollars is crazy.

So, uh, to be continued on that, I will make sure to keep you guys updated on the do fiasco because that is how I've spent my entire week is scraping lead paint off of my door and possibly giving myself. Fatal doses of lead in the meantime. So there you go. Um, you should wear a respirator, by the way. I wore a respirator, but I don't, um, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like the one you were supposed to N95 that we were supposed to wear during covid.

It was just like a normal one. So. We'll see if this, if, if my episodes just start really going off the rails. We know I consumed maybe a bit too much lead. Um, speaking of off the rails, [00:05:00] I am very excited to hear what you guys sent in for me this week. So let's get to the first voice memo 

Voicemail: I'm gonna have make this, uh, short.

Sweet. So back in 88, I was in seventh grade. I went to this school, um, that was predominantly, that used to be predominantly, uh, white. I, myself am African American. And, um, I remember, um, one day specifically, um, around the second period by all these tow trucks, uh, or pickup trucks rather come up to the school.

And they had, and everybody in the pickup trucks were part of the KKK. So they were had signs going, go home inward. Uh, we don't want you in our school N word. And I was freaking out because one of my best friends was, uh, a kid whose father was outside. With the pickup truck. So I went up to my friend, I was gonna go up to my friend to ask him what was happening, but he was with his dad out.

Well, he went and joined his father because the, the parents, you know, [00:06:00] of those kids asked to, for their kids to come out. And so they released him out. But then I saw him standing with his dad. So anyway, long story short, it was a massive race war where all the kids were fighting. The black kids, black kids fighting.

The white kids. Parents got called, uh, police got called, some parents were fighting the other guys, the pickup trucks. It was absolutely pandemonium. I would never forget that. Um, and uh, yeah, that was a crazy, uh, day. Now, I myself am not an educator. I was just a student. So you said, what was the craziest story?

That has gotta be the craziest thing that's happened. So, oh, also, enjoy your stuff. You're really funny. Your stories are awesome. Have a great day. 

Andrea: Thank you. I, man, I, it is. Wild to me because that, like, that chunk of history, right? Like I never personally witnessed anyone dressed up in KKK stuff like a growing up in San Diego.

Not that it [00:07:00] wasn't there because I think that the Grand Wizard actually lives in Fallbrook, California. Um, but there like it always felt, um, very shameful to be associated with the KKK, like I. Telling, say, calling someone racist would've been a massive insult, um, around the groups that I, I spent time with and all of that.

And it wasn't until I moved out of California and went into some other areas that I realized how much of like a thriving community that can still be in a lot of areas of the country. Um, and I think that has a lot to do with just being naive and the people that, um, you know, my parents surrounded me with and all of that.

But I, I remember my husband telling me who grew up in Indiana, um, and he said he was at a friend's house and he went into their, like, he went to go grab like a jacket or something out of his friend's closet and he saw his dad's KKK hood hanging up in there. Um. And it, [00:08:00] you know, I, I, I just, I can't even imagine for a child like you were, you were a little kid and you're, or I, I assume little kid, middle school or age-ish, having a friend who you hang out with all the time and then seeing them participate in like this aggressive, hateful act.

I just, I can't. And to do it at a school is even more stunning to me. Um. Like it to choose as grown adults to come and do such a, a profound act of hatred towards children is, is stunning to me. Um, and I would love to say that like, ah, good thing we're past all of that. Um, but I know that for a lot of us, we, we see, we see the way that that has kind of had ripple effects throughout the years and how, um, it is, it is fascinating to me because I've had a lot of students.

Who, um, are students of color and they're so much more willing to have conversations about these [00:09:00] things a lot of times than adults are. Probably because, you know, you were talking about your friend who was on that truck, like that friend probably remembers that event as well and hopefully is deeply shameful about that.

Um, and doesn't wanna bring that up. And so I think about the way that, that kind of like secret shame is following. Through the generations. Um, and the way that those who experienced it like you did, um, remember back and how that story is gonna be shared as well. It's just, it, it would be nice to say like, well, thank goodness that's not happening anymore.

But unfortunately we know that sometimes it is. Um, but thank you for sharing that experience. I can't imagine as an educator that day and um, what it must been like for those teachers. I, my daughter had someone who wasn't being very nice to her before, and I remember, and it was like minor, like minor, minor mi like ex exclude, like excluding her from playing and saying like, oh, we don't wanna play with you.

Like, [00:10:00] such minor stuff. And I remember it broke my heart. So I can only imagine what it must have been like for parents, um, when it's something that, you know, is so much more violent and scary, um, and really, really hard to protect your kids from. So. Oh, that is incredibly tough. But thank you so much for sharing.

Um, alright. Let's listen to the second voice memo today. 

Voicemail: So I teach middle school and my second year teaching. I. Um, the school I work at has a policy that you keep all your backpacks in the back of your room. And I had a student about halfway through class, I noticed his backpack was right next to him at his desk.

So I told him, Hey, make sure you go put that in the back of the room. It's not supposed to be up here. And he was acting kind of weird and so he walked back to the back of the room and left it. Sitting in the back of the room where he was supposed to and came back to his [00:11:00] seat, and all of a sudden the kids that are sitting around where the backpacks are at the back of the room start like giggling and laughing and like looking behind them.

And then the kid that had put his backpack up, like jumped up and was like, Hey, stop looking through my stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I sit them down. And I go to one of the kids in the back and I'm like, Hey, one of my trusted kids in the back. And I was like, Hey, what exactly is going on? What is, so what are, what is all the whispering about?

What are you doing? And he said, Ms. Serrano, there's something in his backpack and it looks like skin. Mind you, this kid, um, has, um, some behavior issues. Um, and so. I immediately call up, um, his teacher in the behavior program and I said, Hey, um, I need you to come up here and, um, grab his backpack and check it out for me.

[00:12:00] Um, so the vice principal comes and gets him. Takes his backpack and I don't see the kid again. And then I hear from his teacher later that, um, the item that they found in the backpack that looked like skin was in fact a female genitalia sex toy in his backpack that he took from dad. 

Andrea: It's so, oh, it's so much worse that he took his dad's like that.

He didn't go like, and I guess he's middle schooler, right? So I don't know that there's age limits on those stores, but I mean, you could order stuff online. It's so much worse that it's his dad's. How did they find out it's his? I have so many more questions. I have so many more questions. How did they find out it was his dad's?

Did they call and his dad was like, ah, yes, that's mine. Did the kid just say, that's my dad's? Because that sounds like something that he would say to try and get himself out of trouble. I, I cannot imagine the conversation that night at the [00:13:00] dinner table of like, so let's talk about what is and is not appropriate.

To bring to class. Like I, oh, that's a, that's a deep, deeply disturbing thing. I think that that voice memo is exactly what we should be submitting every single time that we go to school boards and say, teachers deserve more pay. This is the audio file that we need to submit and be like, Hey, listen. Do you wanna deal with this?

No, I didn't think so. We don't either. So hazard pay for what we come in contact with because I don't think I would ever recover. Also, she said she didn't see him ever again. Was he like expelled for that? Which seems kind of excessive, but like, or did he just like leave in shame because I could see that being the appropriate thing, especially if his friend saw it like you had.

Uh, middle schoolers are wild. Um, our sweet friend of the podcast, Denver, [00:14:00] is now working in a middle school and so she's got the whole experience now 'cause she always taught high school, so now she's living in that middle school life and she hasn't had to confiscate. That yet. So I think that, you know, she's at least doing better than that poor teacher was.

Um, I would also love to hear from you guys, by the way, on the most insane things you've confiscated because that one's pretty wild. Um, and it's clear that that student knew exactly what it was. But I've had a lot of people message me and tell me that they have confiscated things from especially early elementary students, um, that they brought to school that they like, had no idea what it was like.

Personal massage ones and stuff of that nature, um, that they would bring for like show and tell or, you know, bring it to have like a fidget toy and stuff like that, that like, then you have to have that conversation and call home and be like, Hey, um, something was brought to school today. Um, I would love to hear stories of how you guys handled that, because that is.[00:15:00] 

I teaching high school, I don't think I ever confiscated any sex toys, thank God. Um, and didn't really have to have many phone calls that were like that. Um, but I did, I mean, I had to have like the vape calls, but usually that's admin, like usually that's, that's what they get paid more to do is just to, to make those really deeply traumatic phone calls and have to have the conversations about, Hey, your kid brought a.

Rubberized anatomy part to class because you can't call it what we call it for real. 'cause that would be insane. Right, right. You probably can't, we don't need to use the alliterative term for it probably. Um. I, I don't know how to transition from that to what we're going to next. So we're just gonna, we're just gonna do it.

Um, the next thing I'm gonna have for you guys is a wonderful conversation with Charles Forer. Um, it is going to be so fun for you guys to hear what's coming up with his next [00:16:00] season of his very, very good podcast. So stay tuned and we will be right back.

Welcome back, teacher Besties. I am so excited because I have a return guest. If you guys listen to season one of the podcast, then you will probably recognize this human or if you have caught his absolutely incredible podcast that has obnoxiously stayed on the top podcast now for like two years. Um, those who can't teach anymore, I have Charles Forer with me.

Charles: Hello. Thanks for having me. 

Andrea: Yeah, thank you. Now remind me, when did you initially release your podcast? The, the first season. 

Charles: The first season started in 2022, and I think the last episode came out in like March of 2023. 

Andrea: Okay, so it's been like two and a half years that it has just, and you released, I there's how many episodes?

Seven, eight. 

Charles: So there's, yeah, there's seven of the first one. Then there's some bonus [00:17:00] episodes, so I think, yeah. Uh, 

Andrea: yeah, 

Charles: so like there's bonus episode with you, but yeah. Seven of the original, um, series. 

Andrea: Yeah. Which is incredible that, like, for those, those who are like not involved in, in podcasting at all, maybe don't know it's number one.

It's very difficult to get on the list to begin with. 'cause there's just so many podcasts. Everybody has a podcast, right. Um. But then on top of that, for it to be a podcast that is about education and a podcast that you released those episodes and then that's pretty much like you haven't, other than what's coming very soon, which I'm very excited about.

Um, you haven't like continuously weekly produced more podcasts, which is usually, or more episodes of that podcast, which is usually how people stay on the rankings. It's just that. Your podcast hit such a note with so many people that it's just been this incredible word of mouth thing where people listen to it and they're like, I know so many people that need.

To hear this. Um, so how did you go from season one, which looked at [00:18:00] which you guys should all go back. Listen to the first episode I had with Charles 'cause we talk a ton about his first season. Um, but how did you go about going from season one and exploring why teachers leave and the nuances there to now going into season two?

Charles: I think, I mean, there are a few things. So I have a buddy, his name's Cooper McKim, and he was another podcast guy, and I hung out with him and I was like, Hey, man, look at this podcast. It, it did okay. He's like, all right, cool. Do another season. And I was like, oh, oh no. Okay. Um, and so I was trying to think of ideas about what, what, what a second season would look like.

That wasn't just repetitive. Um, and I've always really liked the idea of. Long form journalism and I'm not really a journalist. I try my best and I got journalist friends that I like, show them and then they tell me what's wrong. Um, and so I was really interested, um, 'cause you know, I, that podcast came out and it didn't change the world.

Uh, people are still having a hard time in education, so I feel like some of that's coming from having misconceptions about what the classroom actually looks like. [00:19:00] Mm-hmm. Um, and I think this goes back to looking at pop culture and all the representations of teachers are. They're extreme. Yeah. And so I wanted to give really a year in the life of teachers and, and show what this looks like from their perspective and to show that it's, you know, it's a slog and it's maybe not as romantic as people think.

And, um, when folks are saying, oh, they're indoctrinating, really, it's a little bit more boring than that. Like, we're, we're just trying to keep folks in their chairs and not killing each other. So 

Andrea: yeah, 

Charles: I really wanted to hear, uh, teachers experiences. So I put out a call. On social media. And then I went and touched base with folks that I knew, like I had a former student that was gonna be a first year teacher and I have a buddy who is gonna retire.

And I was like, okay, I want people all over the spectrum. And so I ended up with 15 teachers across the teaching spectrum, um, across the country. And we have folks that love it, folks that hate it. We have. pre-K all the way up to senior level. Um, and then we have a couple teachers that this is their first year out of the classroom, [00:20:00] and so I had them all keep audio journals of their school year.

And so this next season is gonna be a compilation of, uh, of their school year. And so I've, uh, it's, it's been a lot. It was like 300 audio journals and like 60 hours of audio that I've, I've listened to twice now through.

I don't know. The, the theme for this season, uh, comes from a Susan play called, and one of the lines in the.

These two women who are trying to cover for their friend who killed her husband in the prairie of like Nebraska. 

Andrea: Okay. 

Charles: Uh, but they're, they're covering for each other 'cause like, oh no, I know what it's like to be in like an abuse, abusive situation. But this line that I think is so fitting for teachers is we live close together, we live far apart.

We experience the same things. It's just a different, kind of the same thing. And so I'm trying to show that really teachers across the country, even across the world, um, are experiencing very much the same thing. So [00:21:00] often, especially after that first season, folks don't realize they are. Um, yeah, that first season a lot of people reached out and said, this was really validating.

And somewhere like in 20 plus years of teaching, I never thought, felt like other people are experiencing what I was experiencing. And so the second season is really trying to do that and saying, here's August through July, and um, here are all the things that they go through. 

Andrea: Yeah, so I did, I got a little sneak peek and you let me listen to some of, uh, the early, the early episodes, and it was really exciting to hear the voice of a first year teacher.

Um, but I'm not gonna lie, I am really nervous to listen to the rest because she sounded so excited and so full of joy in life. And it's, and you kind of, you, you tease it a little bit at the beginning where you're like, you're gonna hear. What it feels like, because I remember that first day teaching and you are, you're just like, I'm gonna change the world.

I'm gonna, you know, oh, captain, my captain. It's gonna be incredible. Like, we're gonna, like, [00:22:00] I'm gonna obviously change everything in education single-handedly, and you almost, you have to have some level of that. Otherwise you're not gonna get into education. Right. Like. That, that is the struggle I have with a lot of my students, where I want them to be grounded in the reality of how challenging the classroom is, but not in a way that crushes their spirit or makes them not wanna teach or any of that stuff.

Um, you know, when you were talking about how you approach this, I hope you realize that essentially did, was. And like you, like you should have like gone to some sort of university and been like, Hey, actually I'm doing this, which is almost exactly the format. I mean, I guess you didn't have to go through an IRB proposal or any of that, but like that sounds so much like dissertations that I've heard where like you're taking this huge swath of people, you're exploring this concept in depth, you're synthesizing all this information.

You should just submit like the [00:23:00] links to someone and be like, will you guys gimme an honorary doctorate? Because I mean. 

Charles: If you know people, that'd be wonderful. 

Andrea: I should, I should just like start sending it to everyone at my university and be like, Hey, he's basically already done the work. Can we just, yeah.

Help a guy out. 

Charles: Oh man. So this is kind of on this, uh, part of like doing the podcast and, and doing the research and then coming back and trying to share it in a, in a form that's, uh, accessible like that people actually listen to. Uh, the guy that's actually doing my music, he did my theme song. Um, and I'm gonna, uh, he's doing all the music for my second season.

Good friend of mine, Julian Sappi and his, uh, he went and got a dissertation and he or got, he went and got a PhD at Brown and for his dissertation, he wrote records. 'cause he's a musician and so like, he's talking about Japanese or uh, Asian American experience through music. 'cause he is like, nobody's gonna read my book.

And I feel like that's, I mean that's, that's how we gotta, how to get this stuff out. I feel like you do it with comedy and, um, all the things you're doing. It just, [00:24:00] otherwise folks aren't gonna pay attention if. Even the best book ever, you know? 

Andrea: Yeah. And that, that's the thing, right, is I have a dissertation and I can see how many people have cited it, and lemme tell you it's not, it's not doing numbers like the way my videos do, even though, like you said, like the comedy that I do is very much in the same through line as what you're doing.

Just coming at it from a different angle where trying to get people to kind of feel seen and feel like they've got, you know, somebody else in the world is dealing with the same things that they are. And I do that kind of is is the guy who does your music, is he the same one that did the other podcast with you as well?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you wanna share about that? Because I devoured that podcast so quickly, you guys. It's so, so good. So what, remind me what that one is called. Yeah, 

Charles: it's uh, it's called The Historians Table. Um, and so me and Julian, we have this other friend, uh, named Diego Javier Luis, he's now a professor at.

Johns Hopkins, I think he was at Tufts before when he wrote his book. Um, but he wrote a book called The First Asians in the [00:25:00] Americas. Right. I know. 

Andrea: Yeah. That's like small potatoes, obviously. Yeah. Like just casually at 

Charles: Johns Hopkins. And then, yeah. And he's, he's so, he's such a great guy. Um, and his book is wonderful, but it is, it's like an academic, it could be a textbook.

Mm-hmm. And so Julian got us all together and he said, Hey, I think to Diego, he is like, I think you should make a podcast and I think we can make this more accessible. We, we approached it with a lens of how do we make history honest, and how do we consider the historian that wrote the history, uh, because you know, their perspective, their background is probably gonna contribute to what they, what they're looking for.

And so Diego, he's Afro-Cuban, Chinese, and Jewish, and he grew up in Tennessee and he never felt like he belonged. And so we kind of follow his story of like traveling around, going to Spain, going to China, and every place he went, he's like, crap, I don't belong here either. So we see this arc of him trying to figure out where he belongs as he's doing this research of people that are, um, you know, on this transpacific [00:26:00] trade between, uh, the, the Philippines to Mexico.

And it was, it's, anyway, it's, I think it's exciting, uh, to follow it's, um, Diego's experience and to see how that. Impacts, uh, his, his, his research and his writing, and then Julian's there to be a good foil and make fun of Diego as we go. Yeah. So, 

Andrea: and I will say for any history teachers, I think it would be an incredible resource.

Like just as like, uh, something additional to give kids to hang on to. Because I think one of the challenges with teaching social studies in general is that there, there feels like there's such a. Big separation, right? Separat. Um, there's a huge gap between what happened, you know, 300 years ago and what we're dealing with today.

And it did such a good job of bringing it to the current in a way that was, again, very nuanced. And I feel like that is one of the things that I really struggle with, with being on social media and short term, short form videos and stuff like that, is there's not really room for nuance and there's not really room for conversation.

Like I put out a video, people take it how they take it, and then that's. [00:27:00] That's kind of it. Because if I do, and I have before, I've done a video where I've like done a follow up, I'm like, Hey, let's talk about this like nuanced part of it. And it does, it doesn't, no one ever sees it and people don't really engage with it in the same kind of way.

And um, the historians table just did such a good job of being so honest about, number one, the experiences of your, your co-creators and about looking at the nuance of these historical figures in a way that I think was. I, you know it, it didn't come off as an indictment on any of them. It came off as just factually like, this is who this person was, but they were also this and those things coincided just like with all of us.

We all have a lot of different elements to our lives and our personalities, and I thought it was really, really powerful. 

Charles: Thank you. I'm, I'm glad I, I like, we like making it so, 

Andrea: yeah, it was really fun. Is there gonna be any chance that there's gonna be a second one of those seasons coming out 

Charles: or, you know, it's, [00:28:00] um, this is, you, you heard it on that first episode?

Uh, I need to pause on some podcast projects. 'cause I say yes to everything. Right? So yes, in the future we're thinking of doing more, um. We're right now kind of shopping around trying to find folks that have good stories, good historians, uh, and also looking for some grants and funding. 

Andrea: Yeah. To 

Charles: be able to get something done.

Andrea: Yeah. And that is great that you're so Yes. 

Charles: Hopefully, but it'll be a bit, 

Andrea: right. Yeah. And that's great that you're working with people that are already plugged into the universities that potentially could kind of help with funding by grants and stuff like that because Yeah. I, it, it is really interesting being in the university space now and seeing how.

You know, as kind of the old guard starts to retire and we have people that are closer to our age in like leadership and stuff like that, there is starting to be a recognition about the power of podcasts and social media and the power of narrative storytelling. And I. The acknowledgement that no one else is reading [00:29:00] peer reviewed journals like, like if you want to change culture and all of that, like yeah, peer reviewed articles generally are not gonna, it's not gonna be that.

And no, that's been really cool for me to see as I started at the university and they actually changed some of the policies about how they tenure professors because they recognized that like my contributions to culture and discussions around education. Are very different from some of my colleagues, um, but are not without value and Right.

That was very surprising to me. I don't know, like, especially I don't know how, um, your experience was with K 12 and having a platform, um, and all of that, but I was always very much told like to stay in line and not make waves and was very, very fortunate when I was starting out this journey that I was at a school.

I, you know, didn't, didn't hate it and I was still small enough. I kind of got away with it. I don't know that I still could if I had [00:30:00] the kind of audience I do now. Um. But I, I don't know. Now remind me, because I know that you were teaching high school English, right? 

Charles: Mm-hmm. 

Andrea: And then the podcast came out.

Are you still teaching high school English, or where are you at these days? No, I'm, 

Charles: I'm still teaching English, but at a community college. Okay. So, um, I was doing concurrent enrollment for this school. Uh, and so a job opens, so it's pretty much the same stuff I was teaching at the high school. I'm just at a new building.

Andrea: Awesome. Okay. 

Charles: Which is. I don't have to break up fights. Yeah. So it's really nice. Yeah. I, 

Andrea: you know, most of my audience are K 12 teachers, and I think it would be interesting for them to hear the perspective of what the biggest things are that you miss and the things that you don't miss moving from like K 12 into now a community college space.

Charles: So I think the biggest thing, I feel like when you're in K 12, the students really need you. Um, and that relationship you build, build is really strong. And you can see just the joy of students when they come in your room or the [00:31:00] absolute like loathing of coming into your room. There's these extremes of, you know, they love you or they hate you.

I don't know. Yeah. Um. And so you have that extreme emotion. And, and I think I, I didn't realize until I was at the college that I really feed off of that. Mm-hmm. Um, that I get a lot of energy from the students and then going into the college setting where, uh, I'm just a stepping stone. Um, I'm part of the gen ed courses and, um, you know, I, I build good relationships with folks still, but it's just not the same, uh, as.

It's a compromise, right? I'm not getting the extreme, uh, excitement, but I'm also, again, not getting the kids that are cussing me out. Yeah. I have pretty even keel folks, a lot of adults, a lot of people coming back to school after, you know, working in other jobs or having several kids or, um, being in the military.

And so. It's, it's a different audience and I'm really enjoying that audience. Uh, 'cause I get to be a cheerleader for 'em. Yeah. These are folks that maybe had a bad experience in school and now I get to [00:32:00] be like, no, screw those guys. You're gonna be awesome. Um. Right. You're like, I'm here to help you out.

Andrea: Yeah. 

Charles: And so I think that's, that's one of the biggest things, uh, is that relationship piece. Um, but also this kind of feels wild. I'm in a school, in a setting where I'm one of the people with an education back education. I am trusted, far more there than I ever was at the high school. And so I'm in a space where they, they recognize my expertise in a way that I don't know.

Um, you know, I had great, I had good principles. I had good, uh, folks I worked with, but just community-wise, I didn't feel like the support was there. Mm-hmm. And I can teach what I want. Um, they, I asked, are you censor my books and don't like your books? Then just don't take your. I'm, I feel like I'm carrying a lot of baggage and I have, um, the, the, the chair of my department, I've talked to her a lot about this, where I had to have a couple meetings 'cause [00:33:00] there were some weird situations with plagiarism.

And going into those meetings, I just felt kind of this aw crap, what am I gonna have to give up? Or what am I gonna have to do? Am I gonna get chewed out? Because I've had so many experiences where I wasn't really backed up and just got eaten alive in a meeting and it was meeting somebody. Got a little bit fired up.

She was like, whoa, what are you doing? Like, we'll stop the meeting if that's the case. And it was just, I think I'm trying to get used to having freedom when I've been micromanaged, having trust when I haven't been trusted. Um, and so that's all, that's new. 

Andrea: Yeah. And 

Charles: so there are things like, I miss, I miss the kids, I miss my buddies, I miss teaching my brother.

That was awesome. 

Andrea: Yeah. 

Charles: Uh, but I really enjoy. The fact that my cortisol levels are like not crazy every day and all, oh, the noise. Oh, there's no noise. Um, it's so good. Like I open my door and it's silent. 

Andrea: Yeah. 

Charles: And I go in and I talk to people and they're talking in a normal voice. Uh, yeah. So my ears aren't ringing at the end of the day.

That's pretty cool. 

Andrea: Yeah. Uh, my experience has been very, very similar to yours. [00:34:00] Um, and I, I also, I don't know if you feel like this, but I also have a, a layer of guilt, uh, about making that transition. Especially since my content is very much like talking about the experience of teachers and, um, I don't think it's a surprise or an accident that I have.

Tripled or quadrupled my audience since making this transition because I've had the energy to be able to make content, um, more consistently and all of that kind of stuff. And I, again, same, same as you. I absolutely miss that relationship with my students and people are like, well, you teach college. And I'm like, I, they don't need me.

Like, and, and I mean that in like the best possible way. Like I teach juniors in like in, in college. So the kids who maybe might have needed me. They probably dropped out or are not in this program at this stage. Like the ones who I maybe could have helped as freshmen, like they're gone. Um, the kids who like, you know, you, you really do build such tight relationship with kids.

When you see them every day, you bring you, you know, like little Billy over there. [00:35:00] It, he looks big and tough and is like a huge football player, but. I know that like he has a really rough home life, and so I make sure that he has a Pop-Tart every morning, or like, things like that that like just don't really exist in the same way.

It just within the college space. Because like you said, like they, like, you're, you're there. Um. One of the things I did realize though, uh, in this space was that I, as a high school teacher, right, I was like their biggest cheerleader and was like, you've got this, it's gonna be amazing. You're gonna go change the world.

And I would like push them towards whatever it was that they wanted to do. And I, I never thought that at some point there has to be somebody who's a gatekeeper of like, can do, they actually have either a, the intellectual ability to do these things, the social skills, the, like, the literal ability to get there or the discipline to get to whatever it is.

And now I'm, I'm on the college professor side and I've had to sit with students and be like, Hey, I'm [00:36:00] not sure. This is, this is the, the track for you. And I've never thought I would have to do that because I've always just been like, you've got, you can do this, of course you can do this. And what I found is that it's not that these students can't do it, it's that it's like very clear that like they don't actually wanna put the work in to do it.

And it's been very hard for me to be the person that's like, Hey, are you sure? Like, if you wanna do this, I'll do everything I can to support you, but. And, and I had to have a conversation, you know, fairly recently where I was like, so do you actually wanna be a teacher? And the student was like, ah, you know, I was like, whatcha doing?

Go make money somewhere. Like, because it, it's a hard job, even if you really wanna do it. Um. So, yeah, that's, that's good to hear that I'm not alone in the, the things that I miss with K 12 and, and all of that because it is, and I think that for [00:37:00] teachers that wanna make that transition, 'cause I get that question a lot from people, um, because they hear low cortisol levels and they hear.

Um, you know, the, the respect, because that's something else I definitely have experienced as well is like a lot more respect, a lot more flexibility and freedom in your schedule. And all of those things are absolutely incredible. Um, I do wanna clarify that a lot of people think it also comes with a massive pay increase and, oh no, 

Charles: it's.

Andrea: It, right? It's down. It's down. Um, it's less, yeah. Um, for a lot of people. And so I do think that people, like if you're doing it just to make more money, um, don't, 

Charles: right. 

Andrea: If you're just looking to make more money, um, go into admin, but then you're working all year and that job sounds honestly so terrible to me that I never would.

Charles: Right. Um, no, I, there's no way now there's, yeah, absolutely not. 

Andrea: Yeah, it's not got, like, I, and I remember people telling me that, but before I got my doctorate and I was like, shut up. Like, I'm gonna make more money. No, they were right. It's all right though. Like, it's 

Charles: fine. I feel like though, I [00:38:00] feel like I'm getting paid for what I'm doing now though.

Yeah. Like I feel like the compensation is fair and like I took a pay cut, but it's also, um, I have. We don't really, we don't have things on Fridays. We, we teach four days a week and then Fridays can be school meetings or things. So I end up spending all day Friday grading. 

Andrea: Yeah. 

Charles: And um, or planning, or if I have meetings, I do that, but then the weekend is mine.

Like I don't, 

Andrea: yeah. 

Charles: You know, still an English teacher still have papers all the time, but I'm not really grading on the weekend. And that's. Tremendous, and I will take a pay cut to have my weekends back. 

Andrea: Right? Which I think, again, goes back to some of the nuance and stuff that you talk about in your podcast where it, it's not just pay, right?

Mm-hmm. It's other things as well that educators are dealing with. And I, I also wanna say, I don't want anyone to think that listening to, um, the podcast is depressing at all because. I wa I have a vivid memory of, I was sitting, cleaning my daughter's room, listening to your first season of your podcast, and I just, like, I stopped and was just like listening and just feeling so seen and [00:39:00] hearing some of the.

Criticisms of like the larger conversation said out loud was really powerful. Um, and so I just wanna encourage people that, like, if you're frustrated and you're feeling like people aren't understanding the life of a teacher, the experience of teachers, um, this is a resource I absolutely recommend. Go and listen to his podcast, both the, the last season and.

I, since I got a sneak peek, I can tell you the next season's also going to be incredible. Um, and I'm really, really excited just as a fan to listen to it and enjoy it because, um, you do a really good job of like weaving the narrative together and doing all of that. And so I'm, I'm really excited to get to just, are you gonna release episodes week by week or am I gonna get to binge.

Charles: It'll be, it'll be biweekly. So it's, it's such a bear and I'm, so, this is, this is my fault in not knowing how to manage my time and thinking like, yeah, that, that won't take that long. I thought I was gonna be done in September, and then I was like, January and not even close. Mm-hmm. Um, so I have, there's gonna be 11 [00:40:00] episodes.

Um, we have a handful in the can right now. I know how they're all gonna be laid out, but it's just making just. These folks spent time recording journals like I want Do 'em Justice. So I'm spending a lot of time trying to make sure it's good. So yeah, biweekly, um, I'm stuff in between, so there might be like a little mini episode in between those.

Two weeks. Sorry. 

Andrea: That's all right. I guess I can wait if I have to. 

Charles: God, fine. 

Andrea: Alright, well awesome. Thank you so much again, Charles, for coming guys. Please, please, please go listen to his podcast. It is so good. It will make you feel seen and heard in a way that I think is really special. So thank you again, Charles.

Charles: Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Andrea: Yeah. All right guys, we'll be right back.

All right guys. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Charles. Um, as you can tell, I try not to fan girl too much when he comes on the podcast, but I genuinely am just such a fan of the work that he does, um, with both of his [00:41:00] podcasts and I'm sure of all of the rest of his podcasts that he has coming out in the very near future.

So please do go check those out. They, they're nourishing to the soul. It helped me feel very, very. Seen, um, in a way that Pew podcasts can. So definitely check those out. Um, if you have reactions about today's episode or you wanna suggest somebody to come on, um, then you can contact me, andrea@humancontent.com.

Or you can contact me at Educator Andrea, or you can contact the whole Human Content Podcast family on Instagram or TikTok at human Content. Pause. Um, and we do have a book club still on our Patreon. It is absolutely so much fun. We are right now choosing the book for the next round, so I'm very, very excited about that.

Um, if you wanna be a part of that choice and join the book club, you can join at patreon.com/those who can read. And thank you so much to those of you guys who have left reviews. I really appreciate it. I read every single one. [00:42:00] Um, and I really hope that if you haven't. Then you get on it and get over there and leave me a review.

I would greatly appreciate it. And if you wanna check out the full video episodes, they're up every single week on YouTube. Um, and you can check out how busted my nails are from attempting to, um, get lead paint off of my door. So you don't wanna miss that. It's good stuff. And a lot of times, um, this tile behind me falls off sometimes on my head.

So you don't wanna miss that either. It would be a real shame if it fell during an episode and you missed out on that. That would be tragic. Thank you guys so much for listening. I'm your host, Andrea Forche. Our executive producers are Andrea Forche, Aaron Corny, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Our editor is Andrew Sims.

Our engineer is Jason Pizzo. Our music is by Omer Ben-Zvi. Our recording location is the Indiana State by College of Education. To learn more about our how to survive the classrooms. Program disclaimer and ethics policy and submission verification and licensing terms. You can go to podcaster andrea.com.

How to Survive the [00:43:00] Classroom is a human content production. 

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